European-descended men whose not-so-distant ancestors sailed the world, built giant monoliths and detailed forest castles, erecting reverent pagan temples that endure to this day—I see them trying to reconnect with this part of themselves. However, since paganism has been so subverted by the Abrahamic religions, they reach for the pre-packaged, middle eastern Semitic Christianity. I did it, too.
It grieves me to see that exoteric and performative Christianity seems to them to be the only recourse against the Titanic (demonic) spirit of this age. Esotericism, even within the deep teachings of the Christian faith is completely lost to my blood brothers, and they think the world will find redemption in Christ. THEY may indeed find it, for a time, but only for themselves. The liberalism of the core of that faith seems to be hidden to their eyes.
I vacillate between resigning myself to the thought that perhaps it is the best worst thing for European descendants, to conversely being daily reminded that it actually further corrodes all identification with our ancestors and Nature.
Mm. I think you've got it right in the overall picture-- Christianity is sinking into cultural irrelevance, and may never again be a dominant political force in the US. So much the better.
From the inside, there are really interesting things happening in the church, and it looks like... shedding and consolidation.
The women's-club atmosphere that has been "church" for most of my life has ossified, and is slowly dying. The music... well, it's a symptom. American(tm) Christianity repels men, and it has been that way for a long time. The whole "boyfriend Jesus" hymn phenomenon wasn't an accident-- it was publishers and music producers marketing to the people who are the majority of churchgoers... and it has accelerated the decline. We joke about the "pantyhose quotient" (though really, who wears pantyhose anymore?): the larger the ratio of women to men, the closer your church is to death. Obviously most churchgoers don't think of it this way, but... men are the life of the church. The energy, the generative element. Chase them all off and you've got... what? A ladies' breakfast social? Sterility and stagnation. Part of me thinks the rock n' roll churches sprang from a backroom brainstorming session about how to get the men back ("Well, what do men *like*?" "Sex, drugs, and rock n roll" "well, maybe we can do the rock n roll..."). True or not, the move did get *some* of them back into something claiming to be a church. But they don't seem to be staying.
Trad churches, with trad music and trad teachings... those are growing, but it's clear that they're not picking up everybody who's leaving the mainlines. Most of those are simply becoming irreligious. The un-serious are leaving for good, and the serious are condensing into a small subset of churches. I'm excited for what the traditional churches are becoming, actually. I think we do best as a despised minority.
Thanks Christopher for this thoughtful comment. I have not noticed any shortage of men in the Christian churches around me in Chicagoland -- in fact, the ratio of men seems to be slightly higher. Though I'll agree with you that it is all highly feminized, and not in a good way. You are not the first person I have heard who thinks the great "shedding" of the faithless and the return of smallness/fringe status to the Christian church could be good in the long run. Perhaps that was the problem all along: Christianity was never suited for its status as a religion of the masses. I, for one, would love to see people bail out of the McBox churches and either take some time to figure it out or go full Trad Catholic or Orthodox. The latter two religions have real power behind them because they did not make the mistake of throwing out the potent magical rituals and liturgical music. They are some of the only religions these days doing any work where cleaning up the collective astral plane is concerned.
Whoops! So weird, I swear I saw the name "Christopher" on there. (clears throat) Thanks YARROW. You are named after an amazing plant.
The churches around here may not be hurting for men, but they are definitely hurting for masculinity. There is definitely a stereotype of a soft, pudgy, docile male churchgoer/church leader that exists for good reasons. I have speculated darkly on the general choices of such church people:
Ah, that's unfortunate. I've noticed a lot of that in men even outside churches, in the younger generation: soft, pudgy, slow. Makes me sad. Something's very broken with masculinity, and I think it might eat us alive. I do not think the flood of people crossing the border is having this problem. That has some implications.
It may be incomplete. I think i could make a strong argument for the cult of Dionysus being the origin of Christianity, they put it down once brutally in Rome, the next time it emerged, the sex/fun part had been removed and women were not in charge at all (no 3 day raves) ....basically, it's one half a fertility religion. In some ancient writers documented that they believed the Hebrews worshiped Dionysus / Bacchus . The classic Church Lady stereotype is very tempted to meddle in the live of others. Could the churches Please, give there women something else to do. They choke everything with their controlling natures. Start a soup kitchen or something! They have been aggressively trying to convert me for decades. That communist control is what i am trying to avoid.
I sometimes think that the prohibition against women clergy in the more traditional churches, is partly to prevent this. Any time you have women running the church, all the men leave. To have a church, you need both!
well observed! ,I say this as the mother of men. the church offers men, almost nothing - unless they are effeminate. sports, the military are more of a religion for men, their manhood can be tested and proven at least. they need adversity to exist correctly. challenging the natural world it is in their design. it is one of the rare faiths that has no coming of age appropriate to men. men must become something on an individual basis, whereas females stay communally . men need a separate kind of spirituality to be, their very best. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=berserker+danheime&t=brave&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjOtgOb0Pe1I
I poked at it a little bit, because I remember reading something about it, but was unable to find the survey. I did find this article (a bit old, but seems to cover it pretty thoroughly):
Thanks! I will check that out. Ok here is my best idea. Feast days. outdoors. mine hated being inside. at least young boys are Hungry, and a tiny wafer and sip of wine will Not do. and it is true, you can always get a man through his stomach. but really a drum circle would not hurt either. i still think it was designed by women. then they were removed from dominating it.
Depends on the church. In the last religion survey I read in detail, most churches were overbalanced on the female side, with the notable exception of the Eastern Orthodox church, which was about even-stevens, with possibly a slight edge to the men. I don't know what that church is offering men that others aren't, but they do seem to be showing up.
I used to live across the street from a gospel church. They played "Celabration", that old disco song for ever, it seemed like on Sunday morning. I could hear it clearly from bed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M I did not really mind. It was positive. Not a bad idea.
European-descended men whose not-so-distant ancestors sailed the world, built giant monoliths and detailed forest castles, erecting reverent pagan temples that endure to this day—I see them trying to reconnect with this part of themselves. However, since paganism has been so subverted by the Abrahamic religions, they reach for the pre-packaged, middle eastern Semitic Christianity. I did it, too.
It grieves me to see that exoteric and performative Christianity seems to them to be the only recourse against the Titanic (demonic) spirit of this age. Esotericism, even within the deep teachings of the Christian faith is completely lost to my blood brothers, and they think the world will find redemption in Christ. THEY may indeed find it, for a time, but only for themselves. The liberalism of the core of that faith seems to be hidden to their eyes.
I vacillate between resigning myself to the thought that perhaps it is the best worst thing for European descendants, to conversely being daily reminded that it actually further corrodes all identification with our ancestors and Nature.
Mm. I think you've got it right in the overall picture-- Christianity is sinking into cultural irrelevance, and may never again be a dominant political force in the US. So much the better.
From the inside, there are really interesting things happening in the church, and it looks like... shedding and consolidation.
The women's-club atmosphere that has been "church" for most of my life has ossified, and is slowly dying. The music... well, it's a symptom. American(tm) Christianity repels men, and it has been that way for a long time. The whole "boyfriend Jesus" hymn phenomenon wasn't an accident-- it was publishers and music producers marketing to the people who are the majority of churchgoers... and it has accelerated the decline. We joke about the "pantyhose quotient" (though really, who wears pantyhose anymore?): the larger the ratio of women to men, the closer your church is to death. Obviously most churchgoers don't think of it this way, but... men are the life of the church. The energy, the generative element. Chase them all off and you've got... what? A ladies' breakfast social? Sterility and stagnation. Part of me thinks the rock n' roll churches sprang from a backroom brainstorming session about how to get the men back ("Well, what do men *like*?" "Sex, drugs, and rock n roll" "well, maybe we can do the rock n roll..."). True or not, the move did get *some* of them back into something claiming to be a church. But they don't seem to be staying.
Trad churches, with trad music and trad teachings... those are growing, but it's clear that they're not picking up everybody who's leaving the mainlines. Most of those are simply becoming irreligious. The un-serious are leaving for good, and the serious are condensing into a small subset of churches. I'm excited for what the traditional churches are becoming, actually. I think we do best as a despised minority.
Thanks Christopher for this thoughtful comment. I have not noticed any shortage of men in the Christian churches around me in Chicagoland -- in fact, the ratio of men seems to be slightly higher. Though I'll agree with you that it is all highly feminized, and not in a good way. You are not the first person I have heard who thinks the great "shedding" of the faithless and the return of smallness/fringe status to the Christian church could be good in the long run. Perhaps that was the problem all along: Christianity was never suited for its status as a religion of the masses. I, for one, would love to see people bail out of the McBox churches and either take some time to figure it out or go full Trad Catholic or Orthodox. The latter two religions have real power behind them because they did not make the mistake of throwing out the potent magical rituals and liturgical music. They are some of the only religions these days doing any work where cleaning up the collective astral plane is concerned.
(apologies to Christopher if I was unknowingly impersonating him!)
I'm glad to hear that your local churches aren't hurting for men-- I hope that is more than a local trend!
Whoops! So weird, I swear I saw the name "Christopher" on there. (clears throat) Thanks YARROW. You are named after an amazing plant.
The churches around here may not be hurting for men, but they are definitely hurting for masculinity. There is definitely a stereotype of a soft, pudgy, docile male churchgoer/church leader that exists for good reasons. I have speculated darkly on the general choices of such church people:
https://kimberlysteele.dreamwidth.org/76360.html
Of course I could be wrong, but I was willing to die many times over to avoid the kind of karma I believe they racked up a few short years ago.
https://kimberlysteele.dreamwidth.org/92876.html
Ah, that's unfortunate. I've noticed a lot of that in men even outside churches, in the younger generation: soft, pudgy, slow. Makes me sad. Something's very broken with masculinity, and I think it might eat us alive. I do not think the flood of people crossing the border is having this problem. That has some implications.
It may be incomplete. I think i could make a strong argument for the cult of Dionysus being the origin of Christianity, they put it down once brutally in Rome, the next time it emerged, the sex/fun part had been removed and women were not in charge at all (no 3 day raves) ....basically, it's one half a fertility religion. In some ancient writers documented that they believed the Hebrews worshiped Dionysus / Bacchus . The classic Church Lady stereotype is very tempted to meddle in the live of others. Could the churches Please, give there women something else to do. They choke everything with their controlling natures. Start a soup kitchen or something! They have been aggressively trying to convert me for decades. That communist control is what i am trying to avoid.
I sometimes think that the prohibition against women clergy in the more traditional churches, is partly to prevent this. Any time you have women running the church, all the men leave. To have a church, you need both!
I think Christianity should leave women out of its clergy. Female clergy make no sense with its general vibe.
agreed. I like the variation where people, men, rotate giving sermons, is that quakers?
well observed! ,I say this as the mother of men. the church offers men, almost nothing - unless they are effeminate. sports, the military are more of a religion for men, their manhood can be tested and proven at least. they need adversity to exist correctly. challenging the natural world it is in their design. it is one of the rare faiths that has no coming of age appropriate to men. men must become something on an individual basis, whereas females stay communally . men need a separate kind of spirituality to be, their very best. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=berserker+danheime&t=brave&iax=videos&ia=videos&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjOtgOb0Pe1I
I poked at it a little bit, because I remember reading something about it, but was unable to find the survey. I did find this article (a bit old, but seems to cover it pretty thoroughly):
http://ww1.antiochian.org/node/17069
TL:DR: men like Eastern Orthodoxy, because it's not for weenies.
Thanks! I will check that out. Ok here is my best idea. Feast days. outdoors. mine hated being inside. at least young boys are Hungry, and a tiny wafer and sip of wine will Not do. and it is true, you can always get a man through his stomach. but really a drum circle would not hurt either. i still think it was designed by women. then they were removed from dominating it.
https://kidologist.com/2021/06/23/the-ultimate-jesus-action-figure/
Depends on the church. In the last religion survey I read in detail, most churches were overbalanced on the female side, with the notable exception of the Eastern Orthodox church, which was about even-stevens, with possibly a slight edge to the men. I don't know what that church is offering men that others aren't, but they do seem to be showing up.
I used to live across the street from a gospel church. They played "Celabration", that old disco song for ever, it seemed like on Sunday morning. I could hear it clearly from bed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GwjfUFyY6M I did not really mind. It was positive. Not a bad idea.